Branding an Ecommerce Company: What Do We Call This Thing?

LOOK & LISTEN 

The following is a transcript of the cross-conversation streaming in the above media: 

Welcome ecommerce aficionados. This is Beyond the Cart presented by Lightburn. I'm Nora. And, I'm Andy. And today in episode four, we'll explore the process of branding our fledgling ecommerce company. That's right, it's time to drop the name, project X. We'll miss you project X. You served us well and had us feeling like mysterious super villains, but it's time to move on. We'll give you a sneak peek into how we did this with a startup mindset, that is, quickly and cost-effectively.

The business of starting a business

Andy, you have been wanting to get to a name for a while. What was the driving force? Why were you done with project X as a name? Well obviously, we weren't going to keep that. Yeah, there was a lot of anxiety over for me, the domain name, strangely. Especially with some of the stuff we've had to deal with on the Lightburn side, in picking a name and then finding out that the domain 22 years ago was taken. So, I had some anxiety there, but actually is I feel like it's a checkbox that we could check and put a stake in the ground and get moving.  

Well, I think it's worth noting that all we're talking about today is picking a name, which is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to developing a brand. The name and even a logo are really the very beginning of what makes up a brand. So, it seems simple enough maybe at first to come up with a name, but we knew that that was starting us down a path of developing a lot more. 

So, we've got to pick a voice and tone, we've got to figure out how we're going to talk to our customers, how we're going to talk about ourselves. And it felt to me like a really big thing, and that we could really screw it up easily. So, we really stripped it back to the basics, I think. And this isn't something that we get to do very often. Naming, we've done it, we've participated in it a lot, but we haven't led it especially for ourselves. Yeah. I agree with the anxiety part, it seems like forever. It's like getting married. It's like, "Oh! This is forever." So, I think there's a lot of anxiety around picking a name for the organization versus a product, because the product name you can change more easily. So yeah, I agree. I think that's part of why I wanted to get the show on the road. There's a lot of things that we need to do as a business and we need a name. We need a federal ID number, we can't do that without a name. We need a bank account, we can't do that without a name. So, I know we debated going back and forth and just picking something temporary and then we could always change it. I'm glad we went through the process we went through though.

That would have felt like kicking the can down the road and we would have had the same challenges, which were we have different personality types between you, me and Scott, the way that we go about this. It was really funny because I was like, "Hold on, we have to follow the process. Here are the steps we're going to meet." And Andy, you were throwing name ideas at the wall to see what would stick. And then, at the same time Scott was just standing in the background, shooting things down with great insight, but still not participating on either side. So, the three of our personalities went about this task completely differently, but I think it ended up being really positive.

I really liked how it ended up. And I think it's worth noting, we really did this with a startup mindset. 

The branding process

Naming, picking a brand, developing it the right way or the complex way. There are companies devoted to this that will do market research and spend tons of time on it, and that's valuable. It wouldn't have been valuable for us. It wouldn't have moved us forward, I don't think in this case. So, we really needed to come at this like a startup, because that's what we are. Yeah. And, I personally struggle with a lot of the academic processes. I would call them academic processes around branding. It's like, let's just iterate as quickly as possible.

Well, and I'm the opposite. I want more process and so, I think we skewed each other a little bit out of where we're comfortable. I forced a little process on you and there was one point when you were putting names out there and I thought, "You know what? Why not just participate in this instead of pushing it off and saying, we got to wait, we got to wait." When you're coming up with a name, doing a process like this, you need to look at who are the personalities in the room, who are the decision-makers and how are they going to participate best. Because, if you have a type of person who needs time to ruminate, that's fine. That's who they are, let them have that space. If you've got people who want to get in a room and shout it out and put as much up on the wall to see what sticks, that's great too. 

I think you have to face reality, and not try to fight it, and not follow a process just for the sake of it if it's not working for the personalities involved. And that's something that I've found through any sort of creative work shopping with our clients over the years, is that you really need to learn into the personalities for our stakeholders, and find the right way to invite them into the process. So, we did a hybrid. I would say, we didn't follow exactly the process I would've wanted, but I think we're better for it. I think we all got a chance to have a say and get excited.  

The importance of naming conventions

We had to start somewhere. So, I think it's worth for the people listening to talk about the very basics of even the types of names that you can pick. Because, we could have called this Winfiezer Furniture, or NoraandAndy'sChaircompany.com. I'm sure nobody owns that. They do now. I am going to buy that.

You're going to buy it? Well, you never know we'll have a spinoff. But, there's different types of names, and that also goes a little bit with personality too. You could easily do a founder name, so that would be what people always think of as Ford, it's named after Henry Ford. But, there's also more fun founder names. There's a company that I love called Alice Alexander that does high quality ethical fashion. And, I think that name evokes that and it's also connected to the founder's name so, that's great. You could also go geographic. I was looking at the Adirondack, the mountain range, because these are based on Adirondack chairs and one of the mountain ranges was Spitfire. So, we could have named it Spitfire Chairs or just Spitfire Furniture. And you could also do just a city, Milwaukee pickle, the best pickles in town. I agree with you there.

But, I don't think we wanted to tie to geography either. We could have gotten literal which seems a little boring to me and then you got to work a little harder, I think for the branding. It's not always evocative to have a literal name like General Motors. I don't think we ever really considered literal. Yeah, so literal would have been what? What's an example of a literal name? General Motors. Okay, sure. For us would have been... I don't know, Durable Chairs. So, literally literal? 

Yes, literal. So, Electrochemical Products Inc is one of our clients. They go by EPI, so their name that's known by their customers is EPI. So, often you'll get acronym names from a literal point, and that's a fine way to go too. We wanted something that was a little bit more evocative of something, of a feeling. And so, then you're getting into the invented names, like Google or Pixar. Those aren't real words, they were just invented. You got some heavy lifting to do if you're going to go with an invented name. It may be hard for people to pronounce or spell, and it may not have meaning. Usually invented names have some connection to some story that you're trying to tell as a brand, so Pixar, obviously pixels. I think most people know the story of Google, the googolplex, the number. Yeah, I think it's a googolplex. 

Yeah, googolplex. So, that's evoking a large number, there's quantity. We could have gone that way. There's also associative names like Dunkin' Donuts or even Instagram. Instagram has that photogram connection. So, the last one too, I think I even use this word evocative or what's also called deviant names. So, that would be Apple or Nike, which is hard for us to imagine them as anything else. But, Apple has nothing to do with computers. It's just a word, same with Nike. Nike is the... What is Nike? Greek Goddess. Goddess. We should probably look that up before we... So, it's become ubiquitous with what we know it to be.But, there's tons of examples of those deviant names, where it's a word that doesn't exactly have anything to do with the product itself, but it evokes a feeling and it creates some connection to an emotion or a sense of time or place that you want people to have when they think of your product. 

And I think very early on, we knew that we wanted an evocative name. You were throwing out evocative names from the very start. So, we really just narrowed down our process to just looking at evocative names. And this is where it comes into the process that I wanted to push us towards, which we somewhat followed, enough for me to feel like we did it, which was we strip back to the brand emotions that we want people to feel, that we want them to associate with our brand. Yeah, and that took almost a week where we were just doodling in a chat board. 

Yeah. And, it was a combination of the feelings we want people to have, the feelings we don't necessarily want to evoke, that's important too, to figure out what isn't on the table. And then also peppering in for us, we were peppering in actual name ideas at the same time, and I think that was okay. So, we had a few different things going on there. We were talking about these brand emotions that we wanted to evoke, and the one that stands out to me the most which I think is sometimes the most complicated. 

Thank God for the German language because it just comes up with any name you want, is Gemütlichkeit, which is good cheer and sense of community. Wisconsinites, I think couple of years ago there was a Travel Wisconsin tourism campaign around Gemütlichkeit. So, maybe people in Wisconsin are more familiar with that term in the US than in other places, I'm not sure. But, that some sums up a complex feeling that we don't have a singular word for. But, we want it to be welcoming. You kept saying, Andy, that feeling of relaxing and sitting around a fire with friends. Yup, absolutely. I was determined to capture that essence. 

How emotion drives brand essence

Yeah. So, warmth is part of that really good feeling when you're with people that you trust and feel that contentment. So, at the same time we went in some totally different directions. Besides just that feeling, Scott brought up a place where he felt that feeling, which is Bayfield, Wisconsin. It's a really lovely part of the state. it really is where you feel that feeling.  So, he brought up Bayfield, which evoked it for him, but we know that that may not necessarily have the same meaning more broadly. I have no idea what Bayfield means to people who aren't familiar with that area of Wisconsin. 

Yeah. Like, I've never been there, looks lovely and I'm sure it is but, to me it didn't evoke that same... I can see how it did for him. Yeah. It just sounded like a place. Yeah, totally. It was just like, "It's just a name."

But also, the sound of it felt... the length of it felt right. It has a sense of a place, Bay that evokes water. We all associate sitting at a lake or by the ocean with that feeling of sitting around a fire, so that was nice. It evoked nature a little bit, we want to be connecting this to being out in nature. These are outdoor pieces furniture. And then, I was thinking about the nature aspect and started making a list of Wisconsin native plants, which was just totally a big long list of plants that maybe had a cool sound to them. And then you Andy, I can't remember where in the process we were, but you brought up your Grandpa Leo. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about why he came into the conversation? 

Yeah, so I have fond memories of my mother's dad, so my grandfather. He went blind, I don't know how old he was. He was blind my entire life but wasn't blind his entire life. Anyways, he ultimately learned woodworking after he went blind. So, as a kid he had this big huge shop these really long Ranch houses that have big basements.  but he had this wonderful workshop down there and there's this distinct smell that I smell every time you cut wood, that fresh wood that I remember. 

But, I spent a lot of time over there as a kid watching him in his basement wood shop just making stuff  So, I have pieces that he built here at the house, my brothers do, my parents still do. So yeah, every time I get into making something, I always think of him. It's just this trigger that goes off. And the fact that he was blind is just... Still, I can't imagine running some of the saws that he was running blind. As a kid you don't put that together, it's just grandpa doing what grandpa does. Grandpa things, yeah.

Yeah. And, it's never registering in your brain that he's doing it all through touch and feel. So, I just think of him every time I take on a woodworking project and I brought that up to the team. The idea of invoking your Grandpa Leo was really exciting, because then it creates a little bit more of an emotional connection for us too to that name. So then we started talking about Grandpa Leo and what about him. What do you remember of him? He owned a Tavern. He was blind before he started woodworking, you said. That he took on that hobby after he lost his sight, which is really impressive and interesting. And so, we were thinking about this intersection of, okay, we've got that name Bayfield we like the cadence of it.

I was looking into plants, Grandpa Leo evoking him. So, we started making some lists of words that brought all of this together. I actually found a list of natural vision health plants that are supposed to be for good vision. I guess we could have just named it like, Carrot Outdoor Furniture, but that's a little on the nose. Everybody always associates carrots with good eyesight. But I went a little deeper than that and looked at some myths about plants that are for eye health, because that would hit the nature part that we wanted. Do you want to talk about any of the names that we didn't like?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it was cool that you we had that conversation about my grandfather. Prior to that, I had found a few names that I liked, but I think I was also being a little impatient too. So, we were debating those.

You were kicking us into gear. At the time, I'll be honest I was really like, "Chill out, Andy." I was actually doing a thing. I was at a cabin with my family on a little vacation when some of this came up and I was like, "I'm trying to do the relaxing thing. I'm doing market research of the feeling that we want to evoke. Leave me alone." And then I realized, maybe this is the right time to be thinking about it. 

Visualizing the product name

So, I would find a name and I'd find a domain name that was available. Get it out there? Yeah. I didn't even necessarily... That's just the process I went through to just again, noodle, doodle and put it down on paper even those in our chat system but, I just wanted to see what it looked like on the wall. For me, it was very similar to taping up swatches of color you pick up the paint store. I just wanted to lay them all out and be like, "Which one screams right." Yeah. And once I realized that, that's why you were doing it, I embraced it and I enjoyed it a lot more. Yeah, but it was great that you- participated more.

And we ended up meeting in the middle somewhere because I was taking us down a probably too academic for us and for what we needed path. It was just too overwrought. But, one of the things that I hate is when you accuse me of overthinking and I'm like, "I'm just thinking, it's not overthinking."  It really was a distillation of our personalities though, I think. But, I do think that helped. That was a step that was necessary to get to the step that actually... Where we had the conversation about my grandfather and then that got your gears going and it was cool because later that night, unexpectedly, you just dumped a whole bunch of reefs on the chat board and — We found one. Yeah, we found one.

This is where I took it. So, I did mine maps from the word eyes, just to see where that would take me with all of the other stuff in mind.  One direction I went from eyes was Iris. Okay, that's a flower, maybe there's something there. Then I thought of animals that are associated with the eye. Then I also played off of the word Bay, which Scott had brought up Bayfield, so I started thinking about other land formations, water formations that might be interesting to play with. So, I had estuary, nook, cove, inlet bluff, glacier.

And this is really about quantity, not quality at a point like this where you're just trying to get as many different ideas out there and they can be divergent and don't worry about good or bad at a phase like this. I think that's really important, and you got to really... If you're the kind of person who likes to edit, this is not the time for editing. You're trying to get as much on paper as possible. Then I did Leo, the name, because I thought maybe there's something there, and so, I went off of both what just the name Leo invokes. So there was fire, lions, sun. And then also, because we know that he was a Tavern owner, I went down the path of a Tavern and thought about is there anything within Tavern? Well, I just presumed that he had macular degeneration which I don't know why. Evidently my grandfather was driving my mother home from school. I think my mom was in high school and he's like, "I can't see," and she's freaked out. What? Really? If I heard the story right, I think my mother who didn't have her license ended up having to drive home because there wasn't cell phones or text messages. So, I don't think they were that far from home, not a big deal.

The never ending iterations

Yes we do. And, then it wouldn't be a problem. So, I'm going to really quickly read you this list of what at one point I dumped all of this into our chat out of the blue, after I'd been noodling on all of this mind map that I was creating off of all these different words. And again, this was quantity not quality. This was my version of throwing something at the wall. So, I'm going to read it. So, what I ended up doing was taking some words that came from my mind map plus locations. So, I had Lodge Bay, Harbor Veil, a few others like that. And so, I was smashing these together, Harbor Veil, Nook Town. So here are the combinations that I put up. Leo Bay. Lion Glen.  Weird. It sounds like a zoo. Session Lodge. A techie. Oh, sure. I think of IPA.  Yes, Session beer. Well, that's where I got it. From Tavern then a session beer, a session house. Interesting. Yeah, these are all quality names, BT dubs. So, you all can have them if you need a name for- Not all of them, because I bought them. 

There's a couple that we have that we're not sharing. But, these would be great if you're opening an Airbnb, a lot of them, or if you want like a hipster bar I think. Copper Glen is the next one here. Brass Lodge, that sounds like cook ware. I don't like anything with brass. It seems dated. Ochre Ridge. Ochre?

Does anyone know what color ochre is? Do we really know? It's orangy like rust colored. It's a fancy word for rust I think. Ruhig Bay. It sounds like no one could get what Ruhig means. Ruhig is German for quiet. That's where I got that one. Wow! My brain as I read this list must have just completely ignored stuff. You really filtered out the shitty ones. Wow. Okay, sorry. No. Stout Bay again, maybe like a brewery. This one sounds like a bad brewery, Stout Bay. Mirth Harbor. If you didn't know, I've been rereading Lord of the Rings. So, a couple of these really have a... I feel like hobits live at Murph Harbor. Miragold Glen. I like the Glen's. Golden Glen, no. Phlox furniture. Phlox? Phlox is a Wisconsin plant. There's also a band named Phlox that you should check out, P-H-L-O-X. Bottlebrush Furniture. Bottlebrush is a local plant, is a native Wisconsin plant.  See, I take that as a literal, like it's a bottle brush. 

Yeah, exactly. That's not useful. Gemüt Outdoor. I was going for the Gemütlichkeit which just doesn't mean anything. Spitfire Outdoor sounds real sassy, right? Like a Spitfire.  Yeah. Confluence Outdoor. Software. It's a little, "Oh sure! Confluence." The confluence of two rivers is my mother's favorite thing in the entire world. She will go visit the confluences of rivers for fun. Really? Yes. What's her favorite confluence? Oh! The Mississippi and Missouri rivers coming together. Absolutely, no question. Is it worth a visit? Is it as good as she thinks it is? No. Okay. 

Confluence does absolutely sound techie, I agree. Merkel outdoor, which I still really like. That would have been one of my top. Merkle was your grandpa's last name? Yap. It sounds friendly to me. That would have definitely taken us in a different direction. Yeah, Merkle seemed real mom-and-pop to me. I guess I'd think of my aunts and uncles. They're all farmers. And has that family association for you. Yeah, totally. Which is awesome. We wanted to be a little bit more high-end, I think, was also part of this. Yeah. Did I just call my family dirt balls? No, I don't think so.They're not dirt balls. No, of course not. But, it felt too familiar to you.  I didn't hate Fresh Coast Furniture. It sounds like a grocery store. Fine. Fresh Coast is something that the lake shore of Lake Michigan is called. Really? Yeah. I've never heard that. I've heard Third Coast. Third coast, Fresh coast, those are both in use. Third coast is a little more popular. Jolly Glen, which was one of my top but everyone I talk to hates it, but you and I both love it. I just love Jolly Glen. I just love saying it.  It sounds so friendly. It seems like a drink for sure. I think of jolly good soda.  I do too.

And again, jolly, friendly, warm, welcoming. And then again, I absolutely think Bilbo and Frodo would meet for a drink at the Jolly Glen Tavern, so that was really influenced by my Lord of the Rings reading during this. I copped to that. And maybe someday I'll open a Tavern.  There we go. There it is, Jolly Glen. Where you headed? Over to The Jolly Glen, man. All right, cool. I'll see you there in a minute.

Yes, sounds like fun. And, you know what? All of the furniture is high quality and durable.

There you go.  Outer Island, I don't know where I got that one. Oh! I think that's one of Apostle Islands. Outer Island is one of the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior. It has a nice ring to it. Yeah. There's a lot of decent stuff here. Yeah. Amber Ridge? Again, that feels like a lodge to me. Very dramatic.

Yes. Amber is dramatic. And then, Leo Ridge. It would have been fine, but we went with... Drum roll. I can't really make it. Can I make a drum roll? Can you hear that? We went with Bilberry. That was really anti-climatic. We went with Bilberry. Bilberries are European blueberries and they are associated with i Health. We found this sort of myth, I guess, that the British air force would eat their bilberry jam and then have really excellent night vision when they were out on missions. Which seems crazy. I don't buy it. I'm sure it's not bad for your eyes. And, blueberries are a super food so, why not? Aren't they? Are they a super food?  I think they are a super food. 

Yeah, let's go with it. So, it's more the connection to i Health that we liked. And then, it had a nice timber to it, Bilberry. Do you want to talk about how we came up with the very specific name? Because, this ties into part of the process. It's really important when you're narrowing down to a name, just figuring out if it's already out there and if you can buy the domain.

Yeah. That was really that was super high on my list of got-to-have's. We got to be able to have the domain that matches the exact company name. Maybe that's just the chip on my shoulder from thinking we're going to be able to get lightburn.com, finding out we couldn't, and I vowed never to make that mistake again so, that was critical. Because, there's always like, "Hey, that sounds like a good name. Oh! Domains are taken. Nope, next."

And, I think it's worth noting. There are tons of cases where getting the .com isn't necessary and you could do your branding around something different. There's so many dot whatever's out there, I think. And there's also the get product name or by product name. I'm not a big fan of those. It's less about the web browser part of the domain name, more about the email. It's just this weird little quirk that I have.

So, we were really attached to getting dot com. I think it's still the gold standard. It depends on how you plan to get found. It's absolutely possible. Especially if you're doing something that's a sub-brand of something else, you might not have to worry about .com as much. But for us, we were attached to that. 

Introducing Bilberry West

And so, we ended up going with Bilberry West as the name. Which I love. I like the name. I like bilberry, like the tie into my grandfather and how that inspired that name. We did some quick searches, there is a organization out of the UK by the name of Bilberry. We had a conversation about does that matter, all agreed that it didn't really matter. And then, Scott threw out, "Well, what if we add West to it?" And I think your response was like, "Well, why would we do that?" And I was like, "Well, we're West."

We're West of the UK. And one of my favorite companies of all time. So, VW guy, I've got an old VW. I order parts for it from a company called Wolfsburg West. So, Wolfsburg is obviously the name of the city in Germany where the big, huge, massive VW factory is. This company has nothing to do with VW corporate, they're based out of California, but they called themselves Wolfsburg West. And, it just has this ring to it and I've always liked that. Yeah. And I think it put the bow on the name. So, we are Bilberry West. That is our new name. 

It has this ring to it. It's not blueberry. Everyone in the US knows blueberry and that's going to be common. And so, there's this little bit of premium feel to it. I could be making this up. I hope so. Let me ask you, real talk. Have you talked yourself out of this name at all since we picked it? Because we did say, "Okay, this is done. Check the box." And then, did you immediately pick it apart and wonder if it was the right choice? Or, have you felt pretty solid? 

No. But, you're also talking to somebody that truly believes... The name is important, we're not just going to... But, you can build a brand around anything. Apple did it. Nike did it. Obviously, those are totally different leagues than what we're talking about here but, I think the name is important but your brand is more than just your name. So much more than your name. 

A good brand is more than a name

It's going to be- Customer service and user experience and logo and our voice and tone. That's what makes up who we really are in addition to the name. It is. Picking the name was important, what we're going to do with it is even more important. Now that we have a name, we're moving into the visual identity process which is a whole other part and we're super excited. Our design team is working with us on that and we'll have some future conversations around that. I think it's interesting because all of the brand work that we've done for ourselves has been about articulating an existing brand who is Lightburn. Lightburn already is something, and we already stand for something.

This is brand new, so it's a little bit different process. We're not articulating something that already exists, we're defining it, which is really exciting.

Yeah. So, I'm excited. No, to answer your question, I don't think I did that. I have not talked myself out of it. Every day I continue to like it. For us as a startup, it just unlocked a whole bunch of stuff.  We can't do trademark searches, and we can't do our employer ID numbers and we can't open a bank account and we can't do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. As soon as we had a name,  that we needed to do to move forward, so that was also exciting. 

Yeah. I think that it's allowed us to talk about it differently too, with the team and it's starting to form in a way that having the project just left it feeling a little less real. So, that was one of the reasons I was excited to get that name figured out. And I ran it by some friends and family, and one of the things that they all said was that it evoked a little bit of a preppy East Coast vibe, like Cape Cod maybe, which I really liked. I like this taking us away from the obvious, which would have been leaning into Wisconsin or Milwaukee or being too hipster, which I think is some of our natural tastes for ourselves. So, I liked creating something that was more outside of us for the name and the brand.

Yeah. And I think it's going to be easy to remember. One of my hopes is that people are sitting on these chairs at a friend's house and they're like, "Hey, where'd you get these chairs?" The name will be easy to remember. Easy to say. Bought them under discount on adirondackchairs.com. You still can't say Adirondack.  I can't, I never will. So we can't name it that.

Recapping the overall ecommerce brand process

We narrowed down pretty quickly. So there's a little bit different process for every type of name that you could explore.  If I had to distill this down, one of the first steps you have to do when naming something, is narrow down what type of name you're interested in or not. That's going to help tremendously in vetting what your process is going to be. 

And, it's also really important to always understand what emotions you want to evoke with that name. And then I think, there's tons of resources out there for exercises that you can do to get to that quantity not quality phase of trying to try on these different names and see what sticks. But, I think one of the most important things that we were reminded of in this process is to know the people involved and understand how their brains work and lean into that. Do not try to force a process that an important stakeholder is not going to participate in, because you're just not going to get anywhere. So, you really have to lean into the personalities at play and be willing to adapt the process to fit those personalities.

Yeah, I truly believe it's an iterative process, and I think you have to embrace that. I think if you try to do a scientific, we're going to pick the perfect name on the first try, good luck. But I would argue that oftentimes those processes spawn that thinking, and that's exactly what happened here. So, as much as I cringed when you were like, "Okay, it's time to do this process." I know you hated it. Oh! I was so mad.

But It was worth it and it was worth the time. I do think it ultimately led to us finding what we ultimately picked.  Yeah. So, I think it was all really good. This sounds gross, but bonding for us too. We got to be creative together, and sometimes we don't have time or energy to do that. So, it was fun. I really enjoyed it in the end. Thanks, Andy.

Yeah, I'm glad we pushed it forward.  And I'm excited. We're all excited, the team's excited, and I can't wait to share in a future episode what we do with this name. So, here's to Bilberry West.

Bilberry West.

Bilberry West.

All right, there we go. That's the end.

- - - - - - 

Be sure to tune in next time for episode five of Beyond the Cart, where we will discuss the ins and outs of developing a killer marketing strategy.

Beyond the Cart is produced by Lightburn. Our episode today was edited by Ryan Dembroski. Our music is the song, Let's Go Go Go by Tigerblood Jewel.

Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your audio. You can always learn more about e-commerce at lightburn.co.

We'll see you next time on Beyond the Cart.